Coleman Hughes—writer, podcaster, and author of The End of Race Politics—joins Quillette’s Jonathan Kay to discuss what he calls “progressive neo-racism” and why he believes a truly colorblind society is the best path forward. In this wide-ranging conversation, Hughes reflects on the history and logic of race-based policies, the cultural and political climate that fuels them, and the personal experiences that shaped his views.

Transcript

Jonathan Kay: Coleman, welcome to the Quillette Podcast. How have you been?

Coleman Hughes: I’ve been good. It’s good to be back.

Jonathan Kay: You look very calm and relaxed. Last time I saw you in person, I think you were in the middle of that whole controversy about reparations. I think you had testified to lawmakers and there was a big blowback on that…which I remember being a very stressful time for you.

It feels weird to say: Coleman’s just released this big controversial book on race politics, and yet it’s a comparatively relaxed time in your life.

Coleman Hughes: No question. I mean, after testifying before Congress against reparations, not only did I have people jeering and booing me in the room, but I had people hissing at me as I walked out of the room, you know, at point blank range. And then I had people, you know, noticing me on the street and so forth. So a book is much more tame than that, in that most people who read it are reading it because they like it.

Most people who don’t like it don’t encounter it. So, it’s not like my 10 seconds of testimony is being broadcast on cable news for people on the street to hiss at me about. That was much crazier.

Jonathan Kay: You have some pretty impressive endorsements here on the back [of the book]. Steven Pinker, Sam Harris, John McWhorter, Glenn Loury.

Obviously, you’ve hit the big time in terms of people noticing what your ideas are. I remember the last time I think we met in person was in Toronto, and there was a Quillette event, and then you and I went for shawarma at this place on Queen Street. It was like one in the morning. I don’t remember what we talked about, except that you talked about how you had to get up early the next day to fly somewhere, but you really wanted to go out.

And so, you weren’t worried about this person you called “Future Coleman.” Future Coleman would be waking up early the next morning.

Coleman Hughes: I think I slept on your couch, didn’t I?

Jonathan Kay: I just remember the shawarma. I have a very strong memory for fast food…At the time, did you think Future Coleman would be writing a book, and that Future Coleman would be gushed over by the likes of John McWhorter and Sam Harris?

Coleman Hughes: I definitely knew I was going to write a book. In fact, I probably thought I’d write it sooner than I ended up writing it, you know, it took longer than I expected. So, I was definitely aware of Future Coleman’s aspirations and already working toward them at that time.