Associate editor Toby Young talks to Jonathan Church, Quillette contributor and economist, about ‘white privilege,’ ‘white fragility,’ ‘color-blind racism,’ ‘unconscious bias,’ ‘micro-aggressions’ and why the Social Justice Left is more interested in punishing whites than understanding the complexity of racial inequality.
Published on December 20, 2018
Quillette Podcast 7 – Jonathan Church on ‘White Privilege,’ ‘White Fragility’ and ‘Unconscious Bias’
literally strawmaned the shit out of that 5 minutes and you want to talk about logical fallacies? in and before that made the great assumption that all whites are racists where you don’t even verify in what part of the book she overtly says that. Her argument touches more on how we can think that we are not racist but actually are.
I think that if you wanna talk about the psychological aspects of her book with someone more familiar with that study, or with the study itself?? She doesn’t have to be an expert on that to keep going around it. There is also a huge subsection of literature that shows that microagressions has an impact on services. Think psychotherapy, social services, etc. So those effects are very much real.
I think if you want to address empirical evidence you rather talk to/with people who deal with that more over. There is a lot of skepticism in the psychological community about well everything, there a lot of reviling studies that show that the biases of most researchers gets in the way. In other words essentially most studies are used to confirm their hypothesis. (because the universities dont like ones that arent, pressure to make papers, etc look it up).
Also your three guys that you quote:
1. all possibilities in terms of what they are saying so we need to analyze the data to really understand that. which i mean i get you are saying yeah we should do that instead of jumping into it.
2. Also because you are an economist you really should make sure that the things that you are exposed to (because of your job, google search, etc) arent from a biased view. low key those echo chambers are crazy.
The philosopher you quote makes a point which i think we can both agree is good. So we all agree on that? being racist to blacks is worse because high key its fucking ugly that most of the historical circumstances of racism lead to white people having the advantages white people do? Now is that something we can agree on? because that is 100% true.
Interesting point because a lot studies do say that diversity training does not much to help. So the other approaches are very much like race exposure therapy. Which kinda harder.
NOW THE BEST CASE AGAINST ALL OF THAT 25 MINUTE PODCAST IS…. She is a sociologist taking more importantly about the systematic racism at play, not the psychological one. she uses that because it is another weapon in her bag. Maybe not the best. (As we have point out) Now the sociological theory behind it is the much better one to look at.
You John. Are cool. you seem like you want to learn. You seem like you care about the things going on there are a lot of logical arguments to be made about it. low key i agree a lot of people don’t know how to explain this stuff. they shouldnt be defending it. So I can say that some libs are like WOOOOWW please stop talking. but there is logic behind arguments I think you can easily find them. So i appreciate your concern about the psych thing cuz like high key an issue. but look at the social systems theory argued by people who made the case before her. she wants to expand not repeat for the 100th time what privlage and colorblind racism means. Look at those tests instead of this book to understand 101 things because you rationally will think that this is horse shit if you have no foundation.
You mean, it’s 0% true.
Your ramblings remind me of my schizophrenic mother.
Spellcheck? Punctuation? Super un-readable.
All leftists are racists and fascists, 100% fact. Anyone who disagrees is an anti-white racist who deserves….
Bryan, could you be specific. I didn’t read anything in your comment that explores a point discussed in the podcast, which I found absorbing and consistent with my experience (as a progressive critical of white privilege/fragility theory and circular reasoning). Being called a racist because of white skin is obviously (and by definition) a racist assumption, but so begins the narrative…
I’m a Hungarian-born Canadian who came here as a child, so I lacked the privilege accruing to those with generations of family network. I noticed a few things. Excepting commercial farmers, city people do better than country. The other thing is that privilege is something we work for, fight for, aim at. For example,privilege might mean you move from the factory floor into managerial position, a promotion gives you privilege, and another road to privilege is education. When I shoot video, I’m usually second camera. my boss is a Jamaican and the first camera is a black man, because they know more than I. One of my friends is a very black skinned Bangladeshi who says that in his ten years in this country, he’s never encountered prejudice from whites but lots from Asians. Now Canada is a land of immigrants, in Toronto immigrants make up 60% of the population. The arguments made in this podcasts are local to the U.S., and some many be disingenuous because, as Claire Lehman wrote, victimhood is the new moral currency. On the other hand at least 25% of the U.S. population (Trump’s base) is fiercely racist, so any POC living in the south is gonna have a harder time.
At least 100% of people who call 25% of the US population ‘racist’ are, indeed, racist.
Amen! Damn, is that 25% comment real?
You literally just called all of Trump’s base racist. You are a bigot.
I’m going to speak about “white fragility” from systematic oppression involved with international laws of Asylum and domestic violence in the United States; and compare it with political acceptance of cruelty. In America we have a system whereas the question of humane accommodation is more readily available to immigrants than to American citizens primarily of minority heritage. If you unwittingly become homeless via domestic abuse your required to provide reports of abuse by police or restraining order by the courts; that a person claiming Asylum doesn’t need to come up with. Using Socratic Irony and logical fallacy to analyze a condition that is literally the side effect of the very logic that created it requires a certain death of societal Ego.
So, logical fallacy literally created white fragility the dramatic pearl-clutching feigned brow of the holier than thou mindset because *how dare you question my logic*. Now let’s specifically throw white people into the equation along with the weaponized algorithm of thought process and compare it with past and current ideologies and how white fragility is used to defend, blame and conquer. All my life
Pro nationalism vs anti-semitism (racism in all forms disguised)
Pro globalization vs anti nativism
were the standard arrangement between Traditional and Progressive mindset. Now the tides have changed and different associations are being made after decades of War on the definitions of words and more importantly there twisted used by insinuation. Suddenly we have
Nationalist + Nativist = American Agenda
Progressive + anti multiculturalism(racism) = Globalization Agenda
it’s an interesting and heartbreaking observation to minority people caught in the middle of this situation and great distraction; when in fact the only True Nationalist in America are the descendants of Native Americans, Black slaves Chinese railroad workers and Irish slaves. Personally, I find white fragility to be running rampant among our liberal population their deep denial and deflection along with the propensity for having lengthily discussions by insinuation to avoid reality to be deeply disturbing. Furthermore, the psychological damage minority people in urban areas undergo by exposing them to a societal ideology which actually targets them under the misinformed guise that they are helping them; when honestly they are just a method from which to generate their paycheck from.
I can only hope that I have made a point worth exploring.
Good Luck adoring fans of logical fallacy it is in fact your thought process that has created white fragility!
Why is that the pleasant people you’d want to know keep their answers brief, and the ones you’d avoid like the plague go on at length? Or have I answered my own question?
Joe Louis once said, “when a man’s got something to say, he don’t need to take all day to say it.”